The Extras
The Extras
DARK CITY DAMES with TCM's Eddie Muller, Host of Noir Alley
Eddie Muller, host of Noir Alley on TCM, discusses his fully revised book "Dark City Dames: The Women Who Defined Film Noir," which profiles noir actresses both at the height of their fame and decades later as they reflected on their lives after Hollywood. He shares the fascinating journey of interviewing these women, gaining their trust, and documenting their remarkable stories of resilience as they navigated life after the spotlight faded.
• Actresses profiled include Jane Greer, Ann Savage, Audrey Totter, Marie Windsor, Coleen Gray, & Evelyn Keyes
• Added profiles include Claire Trevor, Rhonda Fleming, Joan Bennett, Ruth Roman, Gail Russell, and more...
You can find "Dark City Dames: The Women Who Defined Film Noir" at booksellers beginning April 8th, with the first official book signing at the TCM Film Festival on April 24-27.
Purchase Links:
Dark City Dames: The Women Who Defined Film Noir (Revised and Expanded Edition)
Dark City: The Lost World of Film Noir (Revised and Expanded Edition)
Eddie Muller's Noir Bar: Cocktails Inspired by the World of Film Noir
REVIEW - THE DAY THE EARTH BLEW UP: A LOONEY TUNES MOVIE with Tim Millard, host of The Extras Podcast.
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Hello and welcome to the Extras. I'm Tim Millard, your host, and joining me today is Noir historian and host of TCM's Noir Alley, Eddie Muller. Hi Eddie.
Eddie Muller:Hi, tim, it's good to see you again.
Tim Millard:Yeah, it's been a little bit. I was hoping to see you at the Noir Hollywood but, as I was just saying to you before we jumped on here, I'm the proud father of a 12-year-old daughter and we're in big time softball season right now and we're having a good time and fortunately, when you live in LA, you can start softball in February or everybody else is still in winter. So that's my story, but I do hope to see you at the upcoming TCM Film Festival in a couple of weeks.
Eddie Muller:You won't be able to avoid me.
Tim Millard:And Alan and and Rhodey and a bunch of other friends there, and we'll just briefly maybe talk about that at the end. But you have a book coming out. I mean it's a new book because it's been revised quite a bit. Well, why don't you tell us about Dark City Dames, the women who defined film noir, fully revised and updated?
Eddie Muller:It is a reissue, but what's interesting is it has a slightly different title than when it was first issued, back in the early. I think it came out in 2001, is my recollection and it was called Dark City Dames the Wicked Women of Film Noir. But now, 20 odd years later, that was the one subtle change the publisher requested was that we change from just W women of film noir to the women who define film noir, which I was perfectly fine with because they were doing such a gorgeous job, you know, revamping and sort of remodeling the book and adding 10 additional profiles to the six that comprise the original edition of the book. And it's a book that I've been eager to get back in print for years and in many ways, tim, I'm glad that it didn't happen right away, because my relationship with Running Press as a publisher has just been so wonderful. They've done such a good job. They let me do a revised and expanded version of Dark City, my first film noir book, and then did the cocktail book with me and the children's book noir book with me, and it's just a really really good relationship, and so I'm glad that I waited and got the treatment that I really wanted. So the gist of the book is that, and it really does go hand in hand with.
Eddie Muller:You mentioned the Noir City Festival in Hollywood. The book goes hand in hand with that festival, which is where I started doing film noir festivals 26 years ago. We just finished the 26th edition.
Eddie Muller:In that first year that we did the festival, all of the women that I profile in this book were still living and came as guests to the festival and because of that I pitched an idea to Los Angeles Magazine about interviewing and profiling these women.
Eddie Muller:But that was just a short little thing to promote the festival. But when they all agreed and I met them and spoke with them and then interviewed them at the venue, just the idea of the book occurred to me because I would sit in the audience with them watching the film, some slightly older, to see them watching their younger selves up on the screen with a whole new generation of viewers that they never expected would be there was so intriguing to me. What was that journey like for them to go from being 25 years old and gorgeous and a hot property in Hollywood and all that, to being these women who hadn't acted in in some cases hadn't acted in 30, 40 years? I was just really intrigued by that and I was so grateful that they were so generous to open up and talk about their lives. And that's the bedrock of the book is their stories.
Tim Millard:Yeah, because you have it kind of the first part and the second part. We're talking about the original book. You always had that first part, which was a telling of their story as a younger person, in the height of their fame maybe. And then the part two was you went back and you talk to them now in their 70s and 80s.
Eddie Muller:Correct, and I'm so grateful to the original publisher of the book. It was done by Harper Collins and Judith Regan was the publisher. And Judith, you know that was an unusual idea to say. I want the book to be as much about these women, when they were older and no longer in Hollywood, as it was about their early days and how exciting and thrilling it was to be a movie star. And Judith, to her credit, said that's a really good idea. Nobody's really done that. I mean, they've done it as a biography of a famous actress. If you're Lauren Bacall or Lana Turner or somebody like that, they got the full treatment. This is the breadth of their life.
Eddie Muller:But these were all actresses who weren't household names. They were synonymous with film noir, but they were not the average moviegoer doesn't know, uh, marie windsor or audrey totter and savage. So that was, um, that was different, because I wanted to write about working actresses who never quite made the big time. I, I know eva, I know evelyn keys is turning in her grave right now saying what do you mean? I didn't make the big time, I was a big star. But that was what I really wanted it to be about. It's sort of like, in a sense, like you know, in the Coen brothers did Inside Llewyn Davis right, and it's like the guy who was good, he didn't make it.
Tim Millard:You know he wasn't.
Eddie Muller:Bob Dylan. And so now you have the Bob Dylan biopic, which will make a great double bill with the Coen brothers movie at some point. But that was sort of like. My inspiration for the book was like what's it like to almost grab the brass ring but not quite, and then have to carve out a normal life for yourself after that?
Tim Millard:Right, and of course many books have been written about femme fatales, you know, glorifying that kind of concept, and in that sense your book is so different, because there's a real stamp of realism, because you're talking to them now, when they're older, and there's a perspective and they can look back. I thought it was unique, you know, just such a unique hook and so enjoyable. Because I didn't read through all of the book yet, but I didn't even read through the full first section. I just took Jane Greer, I read her first part and then I read her second part. I didn't jump to the next actress in the order there because I actually wanted to get that two-sided mirror kind of perspective right away and I thought that was fun.
Tim Millard:I mean, a viewer can, reader can choose however they want to read the book. You've broken up very easily for that. But I think that as a noir fan but somebody who kind of came to it a little bit later in my life and I think a lot of people have done that didn't grow up a fan of noir. As you age sometimes that becomes more and more something that for myself I was attracted to those films and so I don't know all the stories and I don't know the stories of them even younger, unless I've seen the biographies on A&E or I've read some of the biographies, as you mentioned. So I thought it was a great way to do it and that part of the second part of the story. I wanted to ask you specifically what was some of the joy and interest and things you found out in doing that.
Eddie Muller:That's a great question. I appreciate your saying that you can read the book any women and to me it was more interesting talking to them about how they orchestrated their lives post-Hollywood than in Hollywood, because the part in Hollywood was pretty simple in that era, right, if you were chosen, if they, you know, touched you with the magic wand, you were pretty much taken care of, right. And I lucked out in doing this book because this was not a contrived thing. I didn't cast the book necessarily right. I mean, the deal was the women had to still be alive and willing to talk to me, right. But the good news was, like Colleen Gray was under contract to Fox and Audrey Totter was under contract to MGM, right, and Evelyn was at Columbia, and so I just naturally got through their stories. I got pictures of these different studios and how they varied from each other and the players were all different. You know, like Jane was at RKO and obviously had that really tumultuous situation with Howard Hughes there. And then, you know, colleen, let me introduce people to Daryl Zanuck and Tyrone Power and the people who were at Fox. So all that was really great.
Eddie Muller:But it was the later stuff that really intrigued me, you know. That's where, like Ann Savage, her story in Hollywood and Ann was the star of, you know, arguably one of the most famous noir films of all time, detour. But you know it's a B-minus production and it kind of backfired on Anne because while she's legendary for the film, it cast her in a mold that she couldn't break and a lot of A-list directors passed on her because they saw her in Detour and she scared them and it was like I don't think I want to work with that woman, right. So it was a bad thing for her career and then her life afterwards was just an amazing story, you know, of fortitude, and it was really one of the things that really came to the fore for me was how you know that generation, the women, especially women like this, who are so beautiful and they're movie stars and it's like, you know, they're the prize and so they marry these guys who treat them like you know, put them on a pedestal and treat them so special, and they're never privy to what the husband is actually doing, and this is a very common story.
Eddie Muller:So there are a couple of instances where it comes as a big shock, when it's like we're bankrupt. When it's like we're bankrupt and like, how did that happen? And then, how do you know? Because that was Anne's story, right? I mean, she just went along for the ride and her husband said I'll take care of everything. And then, little by little, it became apparent that, you know, they were hemorrhaging money. And when he died, anne was broke. She had to go back to work and at that point she was in her 50s and it's like she's not going back to work as an actress. So she ends up working as a docket clerk in a law firm in Los Angeles. But then Detour is still there lurking in the background waiting for its revival as this example of noir. And then it's great because the younger Anne comes back in Anne's life to rescue her and give her this third act where she's recognized for this incredible performance. So it was that kind of arc to the stories that really, really intrigued me.
Tim Millard:Yeah, it's fascinating and everybody has maybe their favorite films and their favorite actresses, but all of the stories are so insightful and I just thought they were great. Was there anybody that? I mean you said the parameter they obviously had to be alive and willing to do an interview. Was there anybody that wasn mean you said the parameter they obviously had to be alive and willing to do an interview. Was there anybody that wasn't willing or wasn't alive, that you just were like? You know, just slight disappointment on that one.
Eddie Muller:Yes, there were it right Right off the bat. There were three additional actresses I was hoping to profile and to me it was very interesting that this is not uncommon. I don't think I wanted to interview Elizabeth Scott, I wanted to interview Claire Trevor and Rhonda Fleming, and the three of them all escaped, for interesting and different reasons. Claire was just not up to it physically. She had terrible emphysema and I did talk to her several times to interview her on the phone, but not in the depth that was necessary to do a profile of her, really get to interview her in depth. But I do profile her and her contributions to noir. And Claire was very, very wealthy, very wealthy.
Eddie Muller:And Rhonda Fleming didn't want to do the book. Because this is a funny story, I'll tell this real quick. I remember setting up a conversation to discuss the book with her and she asked me straight away Eddie, how many times have I been married? And I said four. And she said nope, nope, that's the wrong answer. I've been married twice. And she said I was married to Ted Mann and I'm married to Daryl, my husband now. And I said well, rhonda, it's like public record that you've been married that many times and I can't pretend that you weren't. I mean, nobody's going to believe anything else.
Eddie Muller:We say then and she says, well, then I'm not going to do the book. And the reason for that is because she was an amazing philanthropist, you know, and because of her marriage to Ted Mann, she too was extremely wealthy, and and she didn't want to jeopardize any of her, her reputation as a philanthropist or anything she didn't want me to not that there was anything in Rhonda's background to be embarrassed about or anything. She just she just didn't want to do it. And and we became really good friends anyway, and she appeared many times and donated money to restore one of her films that I was responsible for restoring. And then Liz Scott was just a recluse. She has skeletons in the closet that she didn't want to mess around with. So she just said no. But it was interesting to me that the two women who were the most affluent, claire Trevor and Rhonda Fleming, didn't want to talk, whereas actresses like Anne, you know, who really had to scrape by, were more than happy to discuss their life story. That was kind of intriguing.
Tim Millard:Have you gotten some responses that stick in your mind from readers from the first issuing of the book?
Eddie Muller:Well, yeah, I mean yes.
Eddie Muller:The most important feedback was from them, from the actresses themselves, because I told them going in that I wasn't going to show them anything.
Eddie Muller:Right, that was a requisite for cooperating with me is I said look, I have to do this the way I want to do this.
Eddie Muller:And because there's six of you, if I say to one of you, yes, you can review the copy before I submit it to the publisher, then I am obligated to do that for all six. And I say this is just going to slow everything down. I'm going to be answering to seven editors then, and so I said I'm not going to show you anything. You just have to trust me and accept that you'll be okay with the story that comes out of it. And I'm telling you, tim, the thing that I find most gratifying not just about this book, but perhaps about in my entire career is that they all were very pleased with the way the book turned out and their sections in the book turned out, and they felt like it was a very accurate and true depiction of their life story, to the degree that I was so pleased that Jane Greer's sons, who were very surprised that she, told me the things that she did, but it didn't bother anyone, you know.
Tim Millard:No, but they're very personal family. There's some very personal family stuff there, especially.
Eddie Muller:Oh yes, oh yes, when there's a little. Well, I mean, jane had a life-threatening medical issue that was pretty traumatic, that she did not really like to talk about because it it it left her literally scarred, like horribly, horribly scarred, and she didn't want people to know that. She didn't want people to know that. You know, gorgeous jane greer, uh, you know, had this just miserable situation occur and and then, you know, her husband left her and and it was traumatizing for the boys, for her boys, who were away at school, and no that that story had never been told, right, and so they were kind of shocked. But in the end, when, when Jane passed away, I'm sorry to say, but her sons, albert and Stephen, said, you know, we'd like to give away copies of the book at her memorial service, just because we can't think of a better thing to send people away with. Like this was Jane, wow. So you know, that means everything to me.
Tim Millard:Yeah changed, so that you know that that means everything to me. Yeah, now when, when you revised this book, were parts of that first release revised as well, or were just more new photos and and that kind of parts?
Eddie Muller:There. There was nothing in the text of the six original profiles that was changed.
Tim Millard:That's pretty amazing.
Eddie Muller:Nothing. Yeah, I added the afterword to explain because I'm not in the book. I'm not a character in the book, which is a little tricky to kind of have this omniscient. You know, like I'm in the evolution department.
Tim Millard:Because of that it reads. It's not just like, hey, you're reading a bunch of interviews, you tell it as a story. We talked about Norbar last year or so, but I had my little drink with me as I'm reading these, because it was riveting, Because it is written more as a story and less as a interview where somebody you know. So, Jane, what did you think? Correct? You jumped time periods and you jumped and you added in the characters in the second phase of their lives, their, their husbands or or or partners and their children, and I thought that made it so much more of a good read.
Eddie Muller:Thank you, Thank you, I really appreciate that and I want to give the credit for that to the women, because I was able to do that, because they granted me so much time and access to I don't want to say live with them, but it kind of felt like that. You know, I spent a lot of time at their houses. I spent a lot of time I would say, look if I'm in town, because I didn't live in LA, right? So I mean, it was like I had to do this when I could and I said I'd like to go with you. You know, when you're doing stuff, you know, just take me along and I won't. I won't be a bother or anything, but I just want to see your life at this point, you know, and experience it.
Eddie Muller:So like I spent a lot of time in Evelyn's apartment and in Anne's apartment and Colleen's house up at Jane's house, above the Getty, you know, and, and so I was able to describe them in their environment without, without doing it the way you see in interviews, where it's like we sat facing each other over steamy cups of coffee and dinner, blah, blah, blah, Right? No, it was just like I could describe Jane's day and take myself out of it, completely Right, Uh, and, and I felt that was really really valuable.
Tim Millard:Yeah, yeah. Well, the one of the things you did revise maybe were some of the photos. Yes, that were added, because that's I mean, it's a number one, it's a huge book and so it works well when you have these full page black and white color reproductions of the photos, and I I mean the glamor shots, the they're beautiful in here, and then, of course, reproductions of the photos, and I mean the glamour shots they're beautiful in here, and then, of course, some of the other publicity stills and things.
Eddie Muller:So that part were more added, or yes and it's funny you mentioned that, tim, because that was one of the things I was most worried about in doing this new edition was that for the original one this is deep in the weeds stuff here, but I'm going to share this with you. For the original one, the gals, as I referred to them, the gals gave me a lot of personal photographs to use, right, and these were which are great, you know Polaroids and candid shots and stuff. You know they'd let me wander around the house and I'd say, oh, can I get it, can I get this? You know, and they were very generous. But I had to give all that back, right, and I scanned it all.
Eddie Muller:That was 24 years ago, right, good luck accessing those scans with all the changes in technology, and I couldn't even find some of the. You know what do they call it. You know they had the disks. You know that you would put in and like, none of that stuff works on the new computers, right? So I was pulling my hair out and then finally I said, hey, you know, they've had so many advances in the Photoshop technology and stuff. I said I bet I can cheat and just scan the pictures out of the book and then enhance them to make them good enough to use in the new edition, and we cheated a few times with that.
Tim Millard:Yes, well, I wouldn't know by looking at them, because they turned out so well, but we talk about this whenever we talk about even film restoration. The equipment and the software these days is amazing and it just is next level in terms of what you're able to do with even your own family photos.
Eddie Muller:I would never, I would never go so far as to cheat and do an AI, which you can do now. You just say show me a picture of Marie Windsor with so-and-so, you know, in 1953.
Tim Millard:Just adding the contrast back in and trying to take out some of the dust or some of the scratches and things of that nature. The equipment, that software that can do that is, you know, it's so good now. So, like you said, that's a little bit in the weeds, but tell us a little bit about the newer section that you added to this book called Eternal Flames.
Eddie Muller:Well, this was speaking very frankly. You know, if Running Press was going to pay me for a new edition of the book, they wanted some work out of me. Sure, we're not just going to reprint the original six. How about writing us?
Eddie Muller:You know, 10 new profiles which, quite honestly, I initially resisted because I said, you know, they're actresses, to sort of balance the stories out, because the one common denominator my six gals had was that they lived to ripe old ages, right. And so I said, well, it'd be an interesting contrast to profile some actresses who didn't right, who were the classic stories of how Hollywood ate them up and spit them out, right. And so you know, I don't want to spoil it because some people reading the book might not know the fates of some of the additional actresses that I profile and I imagine for younger readers that section, some of it will come as a shock, you know, because there's some pretty, you know, profoundly tragic endings for a couple of these women. But I thought that was really. Those stories enhance the tales of the women who survived, right.
Eddie Muller:So it's like if somebody read Anne's story and said, oh, that's so sad that she lost everything and had to go back to work and blah, blah blah. My answer would be, yeah, but she's not Gail Russell, right? Because Gail Russell had just a tragic end and so you can say something sad. But then there's Sure, compared to this story, she had a perfectly wonderful life.
Tim Millard:Well, how'd you go about choosing those 10?
Eddie Muller:Um, partly. It was. Uh, well, in the case of Claire Trevor, rhonda Fleming and Marsha Hunt and Jan Sterling, those are four of them. Uh, I ended up knowing them all as well. So it was like, yeah, you know, I feel very comfortable writing about them and what kind of people they were, because I knew them. Uh, I mean, I didn't really know Claire, but I knew enough and I wanted to give Claire her due as being, you know, but she was a bigger star than Colleen Gray or Audrey Totter.
Eddie Muller:You know actresses who are totally synonymous with noir and you know the year that Stanwyck played in Double Indemnity, claire Trevor played in Murder my Sweet, and those two femme fatale performances sort of set the template for that character in the genre. So I wanted to make sure that Claire got her due. And then in other cases it was like actresses who weren't getting their due. You know, like Peggy Castle, who had a very brief career but a lot of it was spent playing this femme fatale character in 50s noir, and so I definitely wanted to profile her. And you know Joan Bennett who, like Claire Trevor, was another big star who in the 40s was that was virtually all she made was film, noir movies right. So I had to do a profile of Joan and you know it was like casting my own noir film in a way.
Tim Millard:Right. Did you have any surprises as you were going into the research for these 10, in terms of you thought you knew and then you found out something different?
Eddie Muller:That's a good question. Yeah, I think that there were some surprises with the early lives of some of these actresses, like Ruth Roman and Helen Walker. What surprised me was how it's very interesting how people get into the business, because there are some actresses, like Ruth Roman, where it's like nothing is going to stop her moment, where it's like nothing is going to stop her. I mean, she made up her mind when she was a child that she was going to be an actress and she changed her name because she saw it on a theater marquee when she was like six years old or something. And her story is like the myth of Sisyphus she just kept pushing the rock up the hill until she made it Right.
Eddie Muller:And and then there are other actresses, like Jan Sterling, where it was just a virtual coincidence that she ducked into a building in New York to get out of the rain and was spotted by a producer and said I want to put you in this show, and then her career was like off to the races, you know. I mean she wanted to be an actress but it just came so easily to her, you know. So those stories are always kind of fascinating to me, like the moment, right. I mean we love noir movies because there's always that moment, right, I mean we love noir movies because there's always that moment, the turning point moment, where they know I shouldn't do this, but I'm going to do it anyway. You know, and and in the lives of these actresses there was always that moment where it's like, oh, I wish this would happen. And then here it is, here's, here's the chance. You know.
Tim Millard:Well, I'm enjoying it, I'm going through it. It comes out April 8th, so whenever you're listening or watching this, you can either pre-order or purchase it at various booksellers online, and I'm sure you'll be selling it at the TCM Festival in a couple of weeks. So why don't we talk just a little bit about the festival a couple of weeks? So why don't we talk just a little bit about the festival? It's April 24 through 27. Grand Illusions Fantastic Worlds on Film is kind of the theme or title for this year's festival. You'll be there. Do you know what you'll be talking about or introducing?
Eddie Muller:It's interesting, I just got my marching orders. In fact, Just yesterday the email came through with my list of things to do.
Tim Millard:It came through on April Fool's Day.
Eddie Muller:Oh, you're right, Tim, maybe I shouldn't believe it, you never know. I've got to double check today. But what's interesting is there isn't a lot of noir. But what's interesting is there isn't a lot of noir. I think I have one film noir in the whole program but I'm excited. Well, that's not true. One thing I am excited about is I'm going to be introducing Blue Velvet. Very important that we include a David Lynch movie now that he has passed, and I'll be introducing that with Kyle MacLachlan. So that's fantastic.
Eddie Muller:Yeah, I'm very excited about that. I'm also doing a presentation. This is something I have looked forward to now for years. I'm doing a presentation with Dan Perry who is, like the world's greatest title designer for movies. If you saw movies in the 1970s, you saw Dan Perry title design. He did the Exorcist, the Close Encounters, taxi Driver Nashville. He did titles for all the major Hollywood directors in the 70s and beyond and we're going to have a sit down talk with a big multimedia presentation on how he goes about, you know, creating titles for movies and how that all works. I'm very excited about that. But you know, beyond that I can't remember.
Tim Millard:Well, and you'll find out if it was April Fool's or not. No, I'm sure those are true. Well, I saw with the title Grand Delusions. I thought, well, you know, there might be not as much noir this year as there are in some years, especially when it says fantastic worlds on film. It sounded a little bit more leaning toward that.
Eddie Muller:It's like fantasy and science fiction.
Tim Millard:Fantasy and science fiction A lot of that yeah, no-transcript, yeah, and things of that nature. So that's great, and I think the kickoff of the festival is Star Wars, is it not?
Eddie Muller:Correct Empire Strikes Back yeah.
Tim Millard:So it kind of gives you the get-go there, letting you know what kind of the focus is this year. But it's always great to see the films there at the festival and it'll be good to see you there. People can look for your book as well. I'm sure you're going to be doing this signing.
Eddie Muller:Yes, that's my first. It was orchestrated this way. It's my first signing of the book will be at the TCM Film Festival. They made me promise I wouldn't do signings in advance of the festival. Oh, I see, right, sure, so we could say that that was the first big one kicking it off.
Tim Millard:Yeah, so those living in LA and coming and or flying in to come to the festival can look for that on the schedule, but otherwise you can order the book from your favorite retailer. So well, I'm having great fun with it. Like I said, I get myself pour myself a little drink and I sit down and I read a chapter and it uh, these are pretty long chapters, so they take a while and they're very engrossing. And, uh, I guess it's not a chapter, it's a, it's a section or a part of the story.
Eddie Muller:Well, I called them chapters.
Tim Millard:Yeah.
Eddie Muller:So it's a great book.
Tim Millard:Well, thanks for coming on today. It's always great to talk with you and I know the listeners and everybody loved the work that you do, so congratulations on such an amazing career that you're having.
Eddie Muller:Thank you. Thank you, tim. I appreciate that very much. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about the book and I appreciate the fact that you read the book or are reading the book, because sometimes I do these. You know it's interesting. I like people who do podcasts and radio shows a little bit more than the people who do TV, because when you do TV you know that they haven't read the book.
Tim Millard:You're lucky if they read the press release, let alone just a blurb. But no, I you know. Look, why talk about the book if I'm not enjoying it? You know it's, it's, that's part of it. But also it's a 300-page roughly book. There's no way I was able to read all of it before our discussion, but all it takes is reading the first, just one of the profiles and also some of the new sections, the Eternal Flames to get a flavor for it and to know that this is an engrossing fun and a great read. So thank you so much. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed that discussion as much as I did. That was a lot of fun and I highly recommend the book Dark City Dames the Women who Defined Film Noir. This new, revised and updated version is a terrific addition to your library and I think you'll really enjoy reading it. Until next time you've been listening to Tim Millard. Stay slightly obsessed.